I received a very nice response from Meg in Oregon in an email and in the comments section of Becoming A Public Defender Investigator, she was very appreciative of everyone's comments (thanks to everyone that tossed in their 2 cents). Meg raised an interesting issue (that has been raised here before) that people may not get a chance to respond to if they don't read the comments, so I'm reposting a snippet here:
I have a question for all of you out there in the field. I often surf the Portland IndyMedia website because its a forum for local activists and frequently has info related to civil rights and indigent defense. I posted a question there asking if there was a group or "cause" who might need volunteer help related (however remotely) to legal defense. Boy, did I get an ear full from a couple of people. Basically, the gist was that "trainees" shouldn't be messing around with an indigent's clients' future.This post then inspired another (by the same rather rabid individual) entitled "Public Defenders should go onI, obviously, don't agree with the negative sentiments expressed in these posts. But I was wondering what you all had to say about this. Do you often face such harsh criticism from your clients and/or the public in general?Sorry this is so long. Thanks for your time and input.Meg
I remember last time we had this discussion, it seemed all over the place with some people favoring ONLY paid internships and others saying that unpaid internships were a good way to get your foot in the door also and maybe one that said internships were a waste of time.
Interesting Note: The infamous Kirsten Anderberg, that made the post about Public Defenders going on strike (referenced by Skelly over at Arbitrary And Capricious) is the one that responded most viciously.
11 comments:
So... I guess you're all familiar with the caustic Ms. Anderburg. I just spent the last 2 hours reading over the posts and accompanying links on Arbitrary & Capricious that Sancho referenced here.
Sorry to drudge up an old, tired issue that's obviously been covered before. I had no idea Ms. A. got around so much. It's good to hear that maybe this attitude isn't as widely and profoundly (and loudly?)held as KA makes it out to be.
Thanks for the quick response to my question. I really got into some of your blogs - very interesting and informative! Thanks to all of you out there taking the time to do this extra work on top of everything else.
In Colorado our only paid internships are third-year law students. Our (unpaid) investigator interns are from local college programs and need the internships to complete their course work. Mostly they help with organizational work, as well as subpoena service and investigation/interviews on misdemeanor cases. Interns who make an impression are at the top of the list of possible hirees when we have openings.
Personally, I think unpaid internships are fantastic.
During law school, I interned WITHOUT PAY at the PD's Office, the Georgia Justice Project* and the Conflict Defender's Office. You better believe those experiences got me my current job.
* I did get class credit for this one.
I've never even heard of a paid internship. What are these people talking about?
Unless by "paid" you mean that you'll be enriched by the experience.
Class credits are nice, a line on a resume is fine. And people who think that you're going to work harder or be better based on how much you're getting paid obviously never heard of Enron. Or the thousands of other overpaid people in this country. Or Mother Theresa. Oh wait, she didn't do anyone any good because she wasn't getting paid.
Geez Louise, what is going on here?
And, wait, I have more to say!
How hypocritical can you be to write articles saying how overworked PDs are (how overworked can you be and still have time to write articles?), and then turn down free help?
And, further, no lawyer, I don't care how experienced, should be relying solely on the work of an investigator (again, no matter how experienced) without going over the case with him or her, and, in most instances, taking an active role in the investigation. If you don't, you can't blame the investigator when things go awry.
And, finally, it's not as if Meg's post said, "I know what I'm doing! Let me investigate your homicide case!" I think she made it clear as day that this would be her first experience and whatever lawyer takes her up on it should know that they're going to have to oversee her work carefully. (Again, I believe all lawyers have to oversee all investigators work carefully - ultimately it's your case and your career on the line.)
I've got to stop. This woman is obviously deranged. Why do I even get involved in reading this stuff?
Meg can come intern for me any day. Unfortunately, there's the problem of "location, location, location."
I have to agree with Blondie. Where are these paid internships in PD offices?
I know of several offices that have paid investigators do the serious felony cases and interns do all the misdemeanors and juvenile cases. Of course, I also think it's foolish to rely solely on your investigator for your information. As an investigator, I hated the people who just said "go find X" without telling me why. I mean there might have been something else that would be important that I could have caught if I had known more about the case but hey...well I didn't work for them much longer.
But Im thinking Ms. Kristen needs a new job. Maybe she was the "I hate my clients" lady.
The word verification word for today is "ZIDDD"
To all-
Here in WI we utilize unpaid interns as well (this is how I started). Using interns also helps determine future hires without having to rely solely on references and a pretty resume. Another thought. My wife is currently in Nursing School. She soon will have to begin her clinicals, which are unpaid. Like our job, she will have no previous experience when she starts this internship; however, she will have a supervisor showing her the ropes. I believe that Doctors begin their career this way as well. It just shows that the idea of interns is a great idea and whether or not they are paid, does not change the work they will do, it changes the probability of success and a future in that career.
Wow, thanks to everyone who has contributed to the post.
Melissa brought up the fact that many offices use interns for their Misdo and Juvi cases. That is also done in our county...under the supervision of experienced investigators.
Meg, I second Blondie, I wish you lived a little closer to my office in Cali. We can ALWAYS use interns who are gung ho about the work we do.
My word verification is: ikinukvg
I sure am glad I found you guys. I've learned more here in 2 weeks than I have in the last year. Thanks for all the great responses.
Glad to hear I wasn't way out there asking about volunteering. Maybe right question, wrong forum, huh? KA's a bit intimidating at first, and I didn't know for sure if I was wrong for thinking I could do it. Guess facing off with her is good training. But I have to agree with Blondie, why get involved with that stuff? It's futile.
I sure do wish I lived there too! I'd love to intern under any of you.
The Public Defender Service in DC is a model agency for the nation. They have hundreds of applicants every year for just a few APD positions. They have a GREAT investigator intern program for volunteers. The interns get great training and make a real difference in cases. Same with the intern program at Georgetown University Law Center. I think every PD office should take advantage of student internships because given our limited resources, it is often the best way to even the playing field against the state and their thousands of officers and agents against little ole' us and our strained paid investigators.
I participated in an undergrad internship (unpaid) as an investigator with a state agency. After graduation and on the strength of their recommendation, I was hired by the Public Defender as an investigator. That was 25 years ago. I currently oversee our modest investigative internship program (unpaid)as a way of "giving back". I have supervised 18 undergrad interns over the years and feel that I have assisted these young people; perhaps simply as a reference on a resume or as a mentor and advisor. I believe in the value of unpaid internships.
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